Joseph John Hayab, current chairman of Northern Christian Association (CAN), who also serves as the Country Director for Global Peace Foundation Nigeria, an organisation that works to mitigate identity-based conflicts using a value-driven approach to peacebuilding, with the slogan: ‘We are one family under God’ in this interview with BENJAMIN AGESAN, spoke about the insecurity in Kaduna State and northern Nigeria at large. He also discussed critical economic issues in Kaduna and the state government’s effort, under Governor Uba Sani, in tackling them. Excerpts:
Do you see the insecurity affecting All Progressive Congress as a party and President Bola Ahmed Tinubu-led administration as 2027 general election is by the corner?
The insecurity we are seeing today did not start with this regime, it has been there for a long time. The communal clashes and conflicts have been around long before now, even during the Shagari era and then there are also historical facts that point to the fact that even in the regional era, there were some kind of attitudes and actions of those in power that triggers this feeling of other people being sidelined, other people being suppressed, other people being persecuted, whatever term you use. So, all these are the triggers of the conflicts we are seeing today, limiting the conversation around this conflict to the current government is unfair and the current security situation, especially the banditry, the terrorism that is going on, didn’t actually start in Kaduna. The Boko Haram insurgency was in the northeast, which has grown to become a part of everywhere in Nigeria or everywhere in northern Nigeria today. Kaduna was known for religious intolerance, but that is not really what we are seeing today. I used to tell people many years ago that am not sure a Nigerian will ever do suicide bombing, but I’m living here to see it happen, bandits are doing suicide bombing and so many other things to kill others or to eliminate people of certain identity. This is an unfortunate situation. Kaduna has had its fair share of this crisis. And to put the record straight, the crisis in Kaduna became mostly a competitive crisis of dominance. Who is in charge? Who controls what? Whose voice is being heard? Whose voice is supposed not to be heard?
Kaduna serves as the capital of the northern region, and so virtually every interest in northern Nigeria is in Kaduna, after separation of Kaduna as a state with other states in northern Nigeria, Kaduna until recently seems to be the only state where you have an even population. Despite some people trying to claim population figures that are not true, when you go to Plateau, you have more Christians and a very small percentage of Muslims. Benue, Taraba, when you go also to other states, you find different systems. So, the system varies.
All these things come to play, and sometimes, instead of addressing it using governance, we deliberately use governance to further escalate it. Though, Kaduna made a tremendous success because after all the killings and the violence, until 2002, when Makarfi was governor, and he was just seeking for his second term, what really happened was that those who didn’t like him to go for the second term, hid under the division in the state and created violence. That’s what led to the Miss World Beauty Pageant crisis, because the Miss World Beauty Pageant crisis was not supposed to be a Kaduna problem. The lady who wrote the article did not reside in Kaduna. The headquarters of ThisDay Newspaper had never been in Kaduna, but you know, Kaduna became a centre to test what they wanted. They hid under the article written by the young lady and burnt innocent people’s houses, killed innocent people. I actually did the mass burial of that huge number of people. We started engaging and realising that the reason why we’re having the violence is because our heads are divided so, we started working together. We put up some structures like segregation prevention committee to stop people from segregation, inter-religious harmony committee, quick response committee. When there’s any crisis or any tension or early warning signal in southern Kaduna, in northern Kaduna, in central Kaduna, we don’t need to wait for security, we would just go ahead and intervene. Issues that can easily create division, we’ll go ahead and intervene.
After the beauty pageant crisis of November 2002, we were able to achieve some level of success and stability that lasted us almost a decade without violence in Kaduna again.
The only incident that happened between 2002 November and 2006 was an incident that happened in Makarfi Local Government Area of Kaduna State and for the first time, the Muslim leaders came to apologise, which has never happened. They said, look, we’re deeply sorry for what happened. our children caused this. We are sorry, it will not happen again.
We were able to sustain that understanding for nine years until April 2011 crisis which was purely political. What happened was that elections have been conducted. Jonathan Goodluck won but some people felt it wasn’t right. It was a violence between those who felt the Yorubas voted Jonathan at that time to win and defeat Buhari. They angrily started attacking the Yorubas and killing the few Christians that are in Sabo, Kawo and everywhere was shut down. The crisis spilled to the next day affecting Zonkwa, Southern Kaduna with allegation that a truck driver came and was stopped because of a security report that he is carrying guns. When they stopped him, then other people came and started shooting. It’s only God that knows the truth of all these allegations. Before that, there were already killings in Gombe and other states because Buhari didn’t win that particular election. The crisis continued to grow from 2011 to 2015. From 2015, the banditry and terrorism that we thought was aligned to this place became the order of the day. Unfortunately, we had a leader at that time who wanted to show he knows everything but didn’t understand how to manage it. That’s Nasir El-Rufai, who was leading Kaduna State at that time. Because of his body language, he gave an impression as if he’s angry with the Southern Kaduna. So, criminals, terrorists and bandits took advantage of that to start causing mayhem knowing that the government is not going to act. When the era ended, Uba Sani came and started opening doors, bringing back the structures that helped people to talk together. The Bureau of Religious Affairs, Christian Matters. Bureau of Religious Affairs, Islamic Matters, with two permanent secretaries which were dismantled and called Bureau of Interfaith. Unfortunately, towards the end of Governor Uba Sani’s three (3) years, banditry seems to be returning. And you ask the question, why? What were those things they were doing that they are not doing now that banditry is returning? I quickly recall the 2002 Beauty Pageant crisis where some powers that be never wanted Ahmed Makarfi to go a second time. And so, the best way they could do is to trigger religious violence. By killing, burning Christian churches.
As such, some of us suspect that what is going on now has something like that. Oh, you are praising Governor Uba Sani coming for your Christmas carol. Oh, you are praising Uba Sani is helping you. Okay, they are killing you again in the market. Keep praising him, they will kill you. But you see, can you deny that Uba changed things in the first two years? You can’t deny that. So, it takes wisdom for you to understand why it is coming back now. Who is behind what is coming back now? And that’s the challenge. Government and security services need to unravel that. If they play politics with you, they come up to you.
But they need to unravel that because who is bringing it? Is there something they know we don’t know? Because I have been around for this long. I understand these things. So, deliberately, they are going to royal communities, among other people. Kidnapping, attacking, killing people to provoke anger.
What we will do is to simply put pressure on government to do the right thing. And what we are advising government is that, please, don’t play politics with them. If they are coming to destroy you politically, show them you are in government and go after them. But when you try to play politics by either denying or trying to twist the facts or trying to downplay it as if it’s not happening, then they’ve successfully defeated you.
Can you say that the killings are Christian genocide?
The whole concept of Christian genocide is not limited to one incident. Genocide, as defined, is any deliberate killing to suppress, to eliminate, or to deny another person’s existence. And some of us would say the Sharia crisis was a Christian genocide. Some of us would even say even the Miss World Beauty pageant crisis was a Christian genocide. Some of us would say clearly that what happened to Deborah in Sokoto, just because someone alleged blasphemy and you kill her, was to eliminate any voice of Christian. In some of the traditional or district head houses today in northern Nigeria, young Christian girls are there at very small age, 12, 13, 14, and they will now tell the world that they are 22, just to justify giving them to marriage and ask them to deny their parents. This is aimed at eliminating Christians number, which is genocide.
The target against Christians is terrible and it’s painful, people shouldn’t deny that Christians are being targeted. The other day, story came out that certain Christians were killed in church, and someone said, oh thank God, more unbelievers have been killed. When you have people who think like that and you call it genocide, and they say, ah no, Christians shouldn’t even say they are being killed.
In some states in northern Nigeria, if you go to buy land, they will write a paper and give you, and tell you that the land must not be used for church, if we ever want to sell anything, and use such example as Christians, there will be more war in northern Nigeria. Nobody is fighting those people to tell them that those words we are saying on Christians is what is causing problems for us, but they don’t want us to talk. No, no, no, don’t say it, don’t say it, it’s genocide. And I think that’s one of the undoing of the current leadership in Nigeria. They want to cover everything, including what is true. See, you can be in power and finish and go, and the problem is there. The reason why you are in power today is to correct the problem. So, why do you want to cover it? Correct it! Know the truth about it and go after it and correct it. So that even after your turn, people can now make reference and say, the reason why there is peace now, the reason why there is understanding now, the reason why there is tolerance now, is because of the system or the policy you brought in place to correct and checkmate the evil that was going on. But when you keep denying that evil is happening, you are only keeping it for another person to come and support.
Can you say the insecurity has affected the Kaduna economy?
As from 2016 to 2023, Kaduna economic strength actually dropped low, but Kaduna economy has started coming up under Governor Uba Sani until the recent events are taking us back to where we were, where we had left. And that’s why some of us are calling on government not to accept it but rather maintain what we have started achieving since May or June 2023 to sometimes 2025. 2025 because, we started progressing in farming, Biningwari was open, many other parts of Kaduna were open, things have started changing, markets have now begun to come back, but the evils are coming back now. So, as we celebrate the success, we had just some 12 months ago, we should understand that some people want to spoil the success. The government should take measures to ensure that they don’t spoil the success. Kaduna actually changed, things started improving, everywhere I started to see, life started coming back to normal, but of recent, things are happening that are not good. So, these are the things we need to checkmate, but if you just say it has break down, no, you will not also be fair to the governor, because he has helped to stabilise and things were coming up. It’s just that as things are progressing and coming up, then new approach or new style of destroying those things, those successes are coming out. Our government needs to open our eyes and see and stop those things, so that the success we are achieving will grow bigger and faster.
Generally, how do you rate the government of Governor Uba Sani, in terms of infrastructure?
The previous government focused their infrastructural development along sentimental places; they placed them where he thinks his people are. Uba Sani is doing something new. Uba Sani is taking it differently. Few days ago, I was to go to Abuja and there was traffic by federal cooperatives, and I was advised to follow Bagui Villa, the Bagui Villa that the former governor wanted to demolish. I saw a new road constructed into Rumi, and it’s going to come out in federal housing which wasn’t what we got eight years ago. I’ve gone to Sanga; I’ve also seen roads. Look, what is just happening now is that, during the Makarfi era, he became someone who wanted to construct roads in rural areas, because Kaduna is not only of the urban area. Kaduna is both the urban and rural area that make up Kaduna State as such, there should be construction of roads that everybody will benefit. What happened previously is unknown as focus in the town, did not go around; it is about, do it in a particular area, abandon other areas.
What Governor Uba Sani is doing now is to correct the previous wrongs. Remember even the road from the Television Garage towards Ngonsondi, though the loan received was called for urban renewal, and this is urban, it was abandoned. The fact is that in one part of it was where President Muhammadu Buhari stood to commission the one that went to Barnawa. But this one, because the people are his enemies, in his own world view, he abandoned it. So, if you look at those things, you may not get it 100% the way you want, but you have to score Uba Sani, why? Because he is helping to restore hope and confidence to people where hope has been lost. These few roads that have been constructed, the one from Kakuli going to Nasarawa, the people have lost hope and thinking that nothing will happen to but now things have started happening. What we want to do is to say, Governor Uba Sani, see, be committed to this project. Don’t do it for election. Do it for posterity.
What would be your message to Kaduna Christians?
No community grows in lack of unity. Whether you are Christian or a Muslim, Kaduna belongs to us. Let’s put it in a very simple language. Nobody is going to throw anybody out of Kaduna. If you like, create problems for the next 3 years, we’ll be here with you. You may be thinking you are strong today; you don’t know who will be stronger tomorrow. For the sake of your children, your grandchildren and generation yet unborn, can we live together? Respecting one another, tolerating one another, giving space to one another.
If the governor of Kaduna is a Christian and he’s constructing roads only for Christians, I should be strong enough to tell him, Oga, Kaduna is not for Christians. Construct roads across board. If the governor of Kaduna says he’s a Muslim and he’s only constructing roads where Muslims are, one imam should be strong enough to go and say, Oga, don’t create problem among us. Construct roads for the other people because they are also citizens. After all, the allocation to Kaduna is for all of us, not for some people. When we start working together, we will force those politicians who used to divide us to know that they cannot divide us. I think some of us really play this game of, ah, it’s our own now, let’s eat. It’s our own now, let him favour us. After all, at the end he will put all of us in bad light.
Secondly, he will create a schism among us because we will no longer trust each other. We will be seeing each other as enemies. And in 8 years, whether he likes it or not, you know that’s the beauty of Nigeria. Whether you do yourself business, manipulation, the time will finish. That’s why those who want to digress and say, those who are troubled and say we should not have state police because governors will manipulate it. A governor will still not last beyond 8 years.
The best he can do is to manipulate and get second-tenure. If he finishes second-tenure, he’s going to leave. If he uses the police against us, the police will also go against him when he’s out. We’ve seen former governors now coming to courts, courts that they were torturing people and refused to listen in this state, they are also being paraded in the same courts.
Humble yourself let’s just unite, agree to be citizens of one country, one state, for us to build our state together. Our state will not even be sweet if we sustain or continue to maintain this segregation. The better part of our state is integration. Muslims and Christians working together, Muslims and Christians schooling together, Muslims and Christians going to the market together, Muslims and Christians fighting for each other. Then we have the best of states.
Our economy will continue to grow if there’s peace, the presence of peace enables us to eat, here are parts of the state that can produce food for us to eat and never be hungry and have food cheap. Fighting insecurity and helping to establish peace is to even make us rich because we have the food to eat, we have the food to sell, we have the food to even take to other parts of Nigeria. But once this insecurity continues, we will suffer to survive.
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